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	<title>Comments on: &#9733; Karl Barth Meets the Emerging Church</title>
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	<description>Field Notes on Bi-Vocational Church Leadership in Suburban America</description>
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		<title>By: Emerging Church and Black Rimmed Glasses &#171; Christianity</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49412</link>
		<dc:creator>Emerging Church and Black Rimmed Glasses &#171; Christianity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] the fantastical mind of Todd Heistand, Karl Barth has a beer and a smoke and a chat with emerging church leaders. Nice post, although I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the fantastical mind of Todd Heistand, Karl Barth has a beer and a smoke and a chat with emerging church leaders. Nice post, although I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David W. Congdon</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49347</link>
		<dc:creator>David W. Congdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.toddhiestand.com/?p=1969#comment-49347</guid>
		<description>Todd, I enjoyed this. Well done, indeed. As a Barth scholar, though, I feel compelled to point out a couple of things:

1. In relation to mystery, it&#039;s important to notice that Barth does not view &quot;mystery&quot; as synonymous with &quot;unknowability&quot; or &quot;incomprehensibility.&quot; It&#039;s easy to get this confused, but Barth has a very paradoxical position. He says that God is fully and utterly &lt;i&gt;revealed&lt;/i&gt; precisely &lt;i&gt;as a mystery&lt;/i&gt;. The self-communicating light of God is not faint and hard to see; rather it is too bright and too overwhelming. And this isn&#039;t a light that produces some vague sense of awe and wonder, but is instead a light that produces a &quot;firm and certain knowledge&quot; (Calvin). Barth thinks that God gave us a full and complete revelation of who God is. Barth would have no patience with the postmodern emphasis on apophaticism or negative theology (the notion that we can only say what God is not). I actually think the emerging church emphasis on mystery is closer to people like Rudolf Otto and Schleiermacher, not Barth. This isn&#039;t a bad thing (I happen to think Barth gave Schleiermacher a bad rap that wasn&#039;t really deserved), but it&#039;s worth pointing out.

2. The idea about applying the motif of particularism to leadership is interesting, but Barth would have a problem with the set-up from the beginning. That is, he wouldn&#039;t recognize the problem of a pastor imposing his (or her) own vision upon the congregation, since that is not a possibility within his Swiss Reformed tradition. The pastor does not impose an individual vision for the community; rather, the vision comes to us from the Reformed tradition itself — and in their perspective, this tradition comes from Scripture. So while it might be a worthwhile idea for American evangelical/emergent communities, it&#039;s not an idea that Barth would understand because the problem is so foreign to him. The whole notion of independent free churches would be problematic.

3. Finally, I think we have to be cognizant of the major critique that I believe Barth would level against the emerging church. Specifically, he would firmly reject their emphasis on being &quot;relevant.&quot; I have written about this &lt;a href=&quot;http://fireandrose.blogspot.com/2008/07/pet-viii-emerging-churchheretics-or.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;elsewhere&lt;/a&gt; in much more depth, so I will simply summarize by saying this: I think Barth would see in the emerging church an unsettling reminder (however faint) of the presuppositions that were operative in the German church that capitulated to Hitler. I&#039;m not saying that the emerging church would ever actually capitulate, only that the relation between church and culture that we see in the emerging church is something that Barth would have rejected. To put the point differently, I think there is something actually anti-missional about the ecclesiology of some of the key emerging church representatives.

In any case, thanks for this post. I really appreciate Franke and the work he&#039;s doing (not to mention you and your own work!), and while I&#039;m doubtful about some of the connections being made with postmodernity, I want to encourage any attempt to make Barth speak to a new generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, I enjoyed this. Well done, indeed. As a Barth scholar, though, I feel compelled to point out a couple of things:</p>
<p>1. In relation to mystery, it&#8217;s important to notice that Barth does not view &#8220;mystery&#8221; as synonymous with &#8220;unknowability&#8221; or &#8220;incomprehensibility.&#8221; It&#8217;s easy to get this confused, but Barth has a very paradoxical position. He says that God is fully and utterly <i>revealed</i> precisely <i>as a mystery</i>. The self-communicating light of God is not faint and hard to see; rather it is too bright and too overwhelming. And this isn&#8217;t a light that produces some vague sense of awe and wonder, but is instead a light that produces a &#8220;firm and certain knowledge&#8221; (Calvin). Barth thinks that God gave us a full and complete revelation of who God is. Barth would have no patience with the postmodern emphasis on apophaticism or negative theology (the notion that we can only say what God is not). I actually think the emerging church emphasis on mystery is closer to people like Rudolf Otto and Schleiermacher, not Barth. This isn&#8217;t a bad thing (I happen to think Barth gave Schleiermacher a bad rap that wasn&#8217;t really deserved), but it&#8217;s worth pointing out.</p>
<p>2. The idea about applying the motif of particularism to leadership is interesting, but Barth would have a problem with the set-up from the beginning. That is, he wouldn&#8217;t recognize the problem of a pastor imposing his (or her) own vision upon the congregation, since that is not a possibility within his Swiss Reformed tradition. The pastor does not impose an individual vision for the community; rather, the vision comes to us from the Reformed tradition itself — and in their perspective, this tradition comes from Scripture. So while it might be a worthwhile idea for American evangelical/emergent communities, it&#8217;s not an idea that Barth would understand because the problem is so foreign to him. The whole notion of independent free churches would be problematic.</p>
<p>3. Finally, I think we have to be cognizant of the major critique that I believe Barth would level against the emerging church. Specifically, he would firmly reject their emphasis on being &#8220;relevant.&#8221; I have written about this <a href="http://fireandrose.blogspot.com/2008/07/pet-viii-emerging-churchheretics-or.html" rel="nofollow">elsewhere</a> in much more depth, so I will simply summarize by saying this: I think Barth would see in the emerging church an unsettling reminder (however faint) of the presuppositions that were operative in the German church that capitulated to Hitler. I&#8217;m not saying that the emerging church would ever actually capitulate, only that the relation between church and culture that we see in the emerging church is something that Barth would have rejected. To put the point differently, I think there is something actually anti-missional about the ecclesiology of some of the key emerging church representatives.</p>
<p>In any case, thanks for this post. I really appreciate Franke and the work he&#8217;s doing (not to mention you and your own work!), and while I&#8217;m doubtful about some of the connections being made with postmodernity, I want to encourage any attempt to make Barth speak to a new generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49335</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 04:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Todd, great, great post. Very well done. I especially liked the part about pipes, preaching, and dark rimmed glassed. : )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, great, great post. Very well done. I especially liked the part about pipes, preaching, and dark rimmed glassed. : )</p>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49324</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.toddhiestand.com/?p=1969#comment-49324</guid>
		<description>Dave, Amen to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, Amen to that.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49323</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.toddhiestand.com/?p=1969#comment-49323</guid>
		<description>If the content of Pagitt&#039;s latest book (A Christianity Worth Believing) was presented as a question which is also that books title (A Christianity Worth Believing?) regarding its content Barth would respond with a resounding &#039;Nein!&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the content of Pagitt&#8217;s latest book (A Christianity Worth Believing) was presented as a question which is also that books title (A Christianity Worth Believing?) regarding its content Barth would respond with a resounding &#8216;Nein!&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Park</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49322</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Park</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.toddhiestand.com/?p=1969#comment-49322</guid>
		<description>THis reminds me of the latter half of Daniel Migliore&#039;s Faith Seeking Understanding. It features a fictional convo between Barth, Tillich, Niebuhr, Rahner, and pals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THis reminds me of the latter half of Daniel Migliore&#8217;s Faith Seeking Understanding. It features a fictional convo between Barth, Tillich, Niebuhr, Rahner, and pals.</p>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49320</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.toddhiestand.com/?p=1969#comment-49320</guid>
		<description>But what would Barth say to Pagitt? You left me hanging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But what would Barth say to Pagitt? You left me hanging.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49319</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.toddhiestand.com/?p=1969#comment-49319</guid>
		<description>Funny. As soon as I read the word &quot;cigar&quot; I said, no, I would prbably bring my pipe. I guess Barth would agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny. As soon as I read the word &#8220;cigar&#8221; I said, no, I would prbably bring my pipe. I guess Barth would agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Rowell</title>
		<link>http://www.toddhiestand.com/karl-barth-meets-the-emerging-church/12/comment-page-1/#comment-49318</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Rowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.toddhiestand.com/?p=1969#comment-49318</guid>
		<description>Thanks.  I enjoyed that.  Glad to see you trying to bridge these worlds and Franke sounds like a lot of fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks.  I enjoyed that.  Glad to see you trying to bridge these worlds and Franke sounds like a lot of fun.</p>
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